David Libby

David W Ebel: So Welcome to the God Says Yes Podcast. You are welcome here. Hello and welcome to another episode of God Says Yes. I'm David Ebel, I'm your host, and ⁓ I'm grateful to be here today. God created each of us for his love. When he created us from he created us from the inside out. That's what we don't look alike, we on the outside. From the inside we look we're we were created to be like him. Which would mean ⁓ we love, forgiveness, mercy, and all the other beautiful things. ⁓ w when we live in this world sometimes the effects of this world splash over into our lives and things don't go beautifully. Then there's things that go wrong, w whether it's people who betray us or hurt us or say terrible things and and wound us. ⁓ we've been ⁓ misjudged ⁓ fired ⁓ w without reason. ⁓ or or there's always church hurt where the church, which is supposed to be the b the emergency room of the body of Christ, includes people who are not always glad to be in the in the emergency room and sometimes their their unhappiness, their rage splashes off on the people who are already there and do trying to do better. ⁓ in in I in in in perfect plan, the people who come to the church become clean and he heal from the inside out. And then they become part of the the other vessels helping the next batch come in. So, you know, we we come in wounded, we get healed, we get better, and then we help the next batch come in. But sometimes in that process, people get hurt or betrayed, and and on behalf of the rest of the body of Christ, I am sorry that that happened to you. It's not God's plan. But the it the enemy of God, Satan, ⁓ does come to church. He he comes for a different reason. He comes to separate us from God in his love. to make us w doubt and challenge and and avoid and find find excuse to not serve God. So this podcast is about wherever you are, without judgment, without blame, we're here with you. And we want you to know that God created you to love, has always loved you, will will always love you. You can't go far enough to to lose his love. You can't do anything dumb enough or hurtful enough to stop his love. He created you to love and he'll always love you. You. Good, bad, good times, bad times, bad choices, doesn't matter what you what you you've done, good or bad, he loves you just like the best parent would love you. The parent that is better than any mom and dad out here now, the one that loves you without question, without reservation. And that's why we're here. We want you to know that love, that godly love that makes all the difference in the world and in heaven as well. Well, I I have another wonderful guest with me today. This gentleman's name is David Libby and he he ⁓ is out of Maine and ⁓ he's a he's a ⁓ a guy who's in in Christian ministry. And ⁓ I'm not gonna ta I'm not gonna tell his story for him, but I am really excited about him being here because he he's lived through suffering and he's come out the other side giving God glory. So ⁓ David, introduce yourself please. Well, thank you, David. ⁓ l a lot of David's here today. my name is David Libby. I live in in central Maine, as Mr. Evil ⁓ pointed out. And I have a wife ⁓ her name is Lisa and two daughters. The older is thirty two years old. Her name is Kayla and the younger is thirty years old. Her name is Bethany. they both live in South Carolina, quite a long way from Maine. ⁓ married both married to wonderful godly men. And it's it's rather remarkable that they are married because there was a time in my my life when I didn't think they ever would be because they were so chronically ill. And ⁓ you know, we we'll probably get into that as the podcast unfolds, but ⁓ it it's really ⁓ a marvelous that they're they're doing as well as they are, but we went through ⁓ a as ⁓ you pointed out, many, many years of intense suffering and through it, ⁓ my faith has been strengthened and ⁓ and closer to God. It's it's it's ⁓ really remarkable how these trials have refined faith. ⁓ and you know, brought me closer to to the to the God who I love and who I know loves me. but Well that that's a that's a good intro. I'm ⁓ now you're not a stranger to us, you're part of the family. And ⁓ you know when you give your life to Jesus you're born into his family and that makes us all brothers and sisters. ⁓ and and you know, some sometimes brothers and sisters don't always get along, but they stay related. They still are family. And ⁓ and you can make up with someone you love, ⁓ even if you don't like them at that moment. And that's the nice thing about the body of Christ. God loves us good days and bad and he gives us the ability to love that way too. Amen. I'm grateful you're here. Very grateful. So, ⁓ at this at this point I wanna just encourage people to hang on 'cause the story is worth telling. So David, why don't you tell us your story? Okay, well, thirty some years ago, ⁓ I forget the exact number, ⁓ but you know, th thirty two, thirty three years ago I married the best friend I ever had in the world, and we were young, healthy, ⁓ full of life. We we were the kind of people who like to take life by storm. We we're we were ⁓ real outdoors outdoorsy kind of people, homesteaders, you know, raising our own food, gardening. ⁓ I was, you know, really into hunting and fishing and foraging for wild edible plants and that sort of thing and and Lisa joined me in those things and we had wonderful times. ⁓ very active. ⁓ worked hard, played hard, And not long after marriage, I think we had maybe one really good year together where she was really healthy. After that her health began to decline. And it wasn't always you know she wasn't always really debilitated, but it would be up and down and we still had our adventures and still had good times, but over the years her health, you know, declined more and more. And the symptoms were ⁓ feeling sick often, like you know, like a a bad flu, pain throughout her body, ⁓ starting in the joints, but then eventually it became her entire body. ⁓ she said it felt like there were shards of broken glass under under her skin, all through her body, ⁓ debilitating neurological problems, and ⁓ sometimes what seemed like mental illness problems and bad seizures and all sorts of things like this and ⁓ we we carried on best we could. ⁓ my our our two daughters, Kayla and Bethany, grew up taking care of their mother often. You know, she wasn't always debilitated, ⁓ but often they had to take care of her. ⁓ and then when my girls were in their teens, my oldest roughly ⁓ seventeen, youngest fifteen or so, they became very ill as well. ⁓ same kinds of symptoms. They were both excellent musicians. My oldest daughter played violin, youngest daughter played cello. They were offered full all tuition paid scholarships to a school of music. they they played very difficult music, ⁓ a lot of the classical composers, ⁓ they played it very well. And they ended up having to give up all that because the illness was so bad. ⁓ at one point my daughter Bethany was so ill that she was ⁓ unable to leave the house for ⁓ two or three years. she had a symptom, in addition to all the others, that doctors were calling sound sensitivity. that was a bit of an understatement excuse me, understatement in her case. ⁓ any any little noise would would ⁓ cause ⁓ physical pain but also kind of trigger a fight or flight type response in in the nervi nervous response and so it would cause seizures, cause ⁓ extreme anxiety and there were times we had to get rid of the dinner plates and the metal utensils, forks and spoons and replace them with paper plates so they would make less noise. she would sometimes go into seizures when an airplane would fly over, even though I could barely hear it, you know, she would have noise cancelling headphones on and still that little little bit of sound would would cause her body to start seizing and ⁓ it was it was bad. It was ⁓ at one time she was locked away in a soundproof closet for weeks at a time sometimes and physical pain all throughout her body, bad seizures every single day and ⁓ this went on for quite a few years. It was it was really intense and I I kinda I personally kind of lived at the almost at the breaking point all the time. I never quite crossed the line into the breaking point, but ⁓ it was very, very difficult for very many years. And ⁓ your audience may be wondering at this point, you know, what in the world were they sick with? And their illness went undiagnosed for a quite a long while, but eventually we got a positive diagnosis of of Lyme disease, which probably many of your listeners have heard of, and along with that a lot of coinfections and and in combination with the Lyme and coinfections, my girls, my wife and both daughters, it turns out, had a genetic mutation that in combination with that Lyme and and other coinfections, made it impossible for the body to body to deal with toxins. So that was the biggest part of the puzzle. The biggest problem was not the lime spider seats, but the body's inability to to deal with toxins. Every cell in our bodies takes in nutrients you know, the food we eat and and then, you know, disposes of toxins and this function was was nearly shut down. So they were they were gradually being poisoned to death by all the things that, you know, we just take for granted, you know, toxins in the laundry laundry detergents and in the foods we eat and the air we breathe and and and so forth. And it was a long, hard battle back towards some semblance of health. They're still not fully well but doing an awful lot better. but ⁓ for quite a few years it looked like they they they weren't gonna make it. My youngest daughter, her life was saved by a half a year stay in a specialty clinic and my wife, you know, was in and out of hospitals and I was quite certain I was gonna be widowed, you know, many times over and ⁓ so it was a long, long, hard battle. But through that and I'll wrap up the story with this, through through all that, And we can get into more detail if you'd like as a podcast on Fools, but but through all that my faith was tested and I was I was forced to grapple with a lot of the hard you know, philosophical, theological questions, like, you know, if there's a God who's all powerful and good then why is there so much suffering and hurt in this world and, you know, couldn't he do something about it if he wanted to and and that sort of thing? And my my youngest daughter especially has a philosopher's mind and a a philosopher knows how to push back against answers that are given until you get right to the place where you can't push back any further and so I was forced to really grapple with a lot of the hard questions and I I came out of this with a ⁓ a a s a faith that was tested by fire and and and much stronger. There are good answers to the hard questions and there is a God and it is it is a God who is trustworthy and who loves us. so anyway, I I I'll wrap up there. That's that's my story in a nutshell and ⁓ you know, we can Again, this this will unfold as the conversation unfolds, I'm sure. Of course. And you know, ⁓ thank you for being so transparent. not everybody is willing to ⁓ peel back the curtain and and and and and feel with you the struggle. ⁓ it's that i it had to be bad when it was just the you and the wife, but when when it when you become the parent and all of a sudden something goes wrong, that's earth shattering. Yeah. And when it when it was er earth shattering, well how did you cope? Well, people people would often say, I I don't know how you can cope with this and I my response was was usually something like, Well I haven't really been given a choice. so ⁓ and and I guess the I guess the short answer is I I I couldn't I couldn't cope with it, but But God can. ⁓ you know, and and it and his his power is is manifested in our weakness. Right, you know, first Corinthians chapter one and ⁓ and elsewhere in scripture. So we ⁓ so I have to give him the glory. I can't take any of the any of the credit for myself and ⁓ I do see as I look back over the very difficult years, I do see great mercies that he that he gave. For example, my wife and both daughters were all suffering from severe debilitating seizures all at the same time, but there was never a time when all three were having the seizures all at once. So there's al there was always one or two people who can take care of the one who is. but little mercies like that, but I guess the the answer how d how did I cope? I wasn't given a choice, I had to. And ⁓ I had to lean heavily lean heavily on on the Lord who who does sustain us. And and I guess I another brief word about coping, when you w when you experience certain things and y you find yourself in in other circles that you didn't know existed and you know, I I I never would have known there was this world of you know, seriously chronically ill people out there until we became part of that world. That's that's why my book is called A Different World that we'll talk about later, but it's really a a I found myself in a different world, ⁓ of chronically ill chronic illness and so forth and a lot of people cope, ⁓ especially non Christians, ⁓ cope with the sort of thing by abandoning the family. We saw that a lot. ⁓ at the clinic clinic my daughter was in for about a half a year, ⁓ There was one girl there, I think in her late twenties, a a lovely girl, who ⁓ I I do not believe they were Christians, sadly, but she had suffered from the same kinds of illness that that my my family had. In fact this clinic was all people who would suffer the same kinds of things, ⁓ you know, ⁓ mainly toxic overload and that sort of thing. But anyway, this girl ⁓ the clinic was was was very expensive and to help pay for it, her husband and her mother organized a a big fundraiser and I think the fundraiser made them, you know, twenty, thirty thousand dollars if I remember correctly. And they were all excited about that. ⁓ if she didn't have this money she wouldn't be able stay in the clinic much longer and so forth and and her her next stop, the v the ver very next stop that she had planned, this was already plans were already in place. Her her next plan, her next stop if this clinic failed to recover her health was to go see a doctor in Switzerland for a a physician assisted suicide. That was her next plan after this clinic. So anyway, they did this fundraiser. When the fundraiser was over, the husband stole the money and hit the road. He was gone. so I guess one so i I back to the question how you know how how could I cope? ⁓ the world often has coping mechanisms that we as you know, sons and daughters of of of the true and living God can't have. ⁓ people say, ⁓ I didn't sign up for this and they and they leave. Well yes you did sign up for it, it wasn't even in the fine print. You know, for better or for worse, in in sickness and in health wasn't even in the fine print. So so ⁓ I was left in a place where I had no choice. I c I can't leave my family. I can't leave the ones I love. And so I had to had to cope with it. and a I guess one other thing to add and and we may get into this more later, but there's actually a chapter in my i in the book I wrote about this that the chapter title is it's it's a privilege to enter this world. And I actually reached a point where I could see it as as not only something to cope with, but something to benefit from. Something I I came to see it as as as God's grace to me, ⁓ to put me through these trials, you know, for his glory and for our good. And so ultimately, you know, he how do we cope? He gives us the strength, he gives us the ability to cope. It's it's his strength we lean on. ⁓ And he works all things together for the good of his people. So ⁓ it it we we really can see it as a privilege. ⁓ this life is brief and he gives us the the training that we need and and ⁓ you know, we can get into that more I'm sure. One of the one of the things that s ⁓ when I when I finally realized it helped me was that ⁓ God never prepares us bef he never sends us without preparing us. Right. He there if if he's gonna give you an assignment, he's going to prepare you so that you can cope. His strength is and is enough for it, his grace is sufficient. So even though it seems really hard, to to do it without God's help would be beyond brutal, would i inexcusably hard. Yeah ⁓ You know, I've lived in chronic pain most of my life. And ⁓ you know, I've had people say, Well, I feel so sorry for you, and I'm going, Don't do that. You know, I don't want your I don't want pity. I just want you to love me as I am. That's it. You know, I don't you know, you don't perform, I don't perform. But ⁓ I'm having a bad day, I'm having a bad day. That doesn't mean give me flowers, it just means, ⁓ I'm sorry you're having a bad day. And that and we move on. ⁓ we need to we need to know that God gives us enough. So that we're not abandoned, we're not alone. We we have hope because our life is eternal and right now it's just really a blinkin' a blink of an eye from the how long life will be eternally. And in this moment It's not a shock that God would want to to do something special in us. And if it means allowing us to go through difficult things, he's not doing it to us, but he's allowing us to g to to have victory through them. He he knows the end from the beginning and he knows the story that needs to be told. So he's he if he's he he allows it to happen, it's not meant to break you. It's made it's made to reinforce you and to and to and and also there's people who are watching. And sometimes the only sermon they'll ever see is how you live victorious through your difficulties. Because the only Jesus they're ever gonna read is the one living through you. Because no one's handed them a Bible or or told or sh ex explained it to them. So they don't know. They just th they're serving from ignorance, not from stupidity. They just don't know. And y I mean I was twenty and I was ignorant. Absolutely did not know. I didn't know God's last name wasn't Dam. I you know, I was raised without it. So, you know When I when I I I gave my life to Christ, I gave him all of me. I said, Y you know, here I am. You know, and and I I was literally saying, you know, you're not getting a deal here. I have nothing to give you, but I'll give you all I've got. Yeah. And that's when I after that's when I discovered all these gifts and talents that I had that I never even recognized. Things I had no d No no understanding that I would deal with. And he did it regardless of my my medical conditions. Everything he's done, he's done it anyhow. So, ⁓ would it be nice to have that not have difficulties? Yeah, but it's also unrealistic because most of the world has difficulties. ⁓ but we've we who have h we live in a country where we have so much, ⁓ when something a difficulty happens, it feels more profoundly because we're used to having more. Pi c if you go to a country where they don't have much, they they they don't struggle the as bad as we do because they have their expectations are lower. Yeah. Yeah. That's very true. Yeah. So if if someone if someone is struggling themselves, what what would you say to them to to an to to focus them in the right place. Well, if that person is ⁓ not a a a follower of of Jesus Christ, then I would say you have to start there and it to to to give to give your life to the Lord Jesus doesn't mean you're gonna be without trials in this life. You know, the Lord Jesus said count the cost. and he ⁓ You know, we said, you know, be willing to pick up your cross and follow after me and and a and a whole lot lot of other har other hard things like that, but but nevertheless you you need to start there. I believe there's no ultimate purpose, there's no ultimate hope apart from that, apart from a relationship with a true and living God which comes through faith in Jesus Christ and and and that's the only way. if I'm talking to a believer, somebody who who already is a follower of the Lord Jesus, a you know, a a born again person, but who maybe is struggling, i if you're suffering, if you're if you're really, really suffering intensely, you you can know that the Lord is there. You can know that He's promised never to leave you nor forsake you. You can know that He has promised in Romans 828 to work all things together for the good of His people. But it still can really be a struggle when you're when you're really suffering, as I'm sure you know. So my my ⁓ advice for that person would be, you know, really lean into the Lord. ⁓ you know really seek to get to know him. So a lot of times people talk about ⁓ how ⁓ w you know, we don't need all kinds of head knowledge and theology. You know, we we we need a relationship and other people say, well no, you know, you you know, y y we don't want this this ⁓ emotionalism, y you you need sound theology. I'm I'm gonna say to your listeners, you really need both. You need to know about God to know God. Okay, so so get into scripture. You know, dive into God's word. If things are hard to understand as some things are, then then, you seek help from people who've studied it their entire lives, you know, read commentary, whatever. But remember the commentary is not is not divinely inspired like God's word is. So so, you know, nurture that objective side of the rul of the relationship by by you know by by learning about God, by by filling your head with good things. But boy, if it stops there, you've missed it by a mile. ⁓ if you fill your head with things about God, but you don't really walk with him and and talk with him and love him and know him, then all your knowledge isn't gonna do you a bit of good. So y you really need both sides of that. You know, lean into the Lord, trust in him. and and then I I guess another detail, ⁓ God God is perfectly capable of working through miraculous means and he does. Those people out there who say he doesn't do that anymore, they're they're just plain wrong, that's not true. God does work through miraculous means. And ⁓ ask for that. ⁓ ask expectantly. But if he says no, ⁓ then know that it's for your good. But he also in addition to working through miraculous means, he works through ordinary means quite often. And that ordin ordinary means can include us you know bearing each other's burdens, as as God's word says. So if you're hurting and you're suffering, don't keep it to yourself. Find fellow believers, ⁓ as you said, David earlier, we're we're a family and I would argue that we're a family with a bond that that is closer than blood family. So so find people in this Christian family, this covenant community, with whom you can share your ⁓ your struggles and your your heartaches and your pains and ⁓ if they haven't suffered the way you have, don't expect them to entirely understand. It's not fair to expect them to, but they'll you know, find people who will come alongside you anyway. put your arm put their arms around you and and and help encourage you and and and bear your burdens. And then by the way, you'll have the chance to do the same thing to others. ⁓ you'll have the same chance to use what God's done in your life, you know, the the ways that He's sanctified you by the things that He's allowed. ⁓ And you'll have that opportunity to to to reciprocate, to put your arm around somebody else and and and bear other people's burdens. You're right, totally. I It's yeah, my it my life is like a magnet. I find suffering people wherever I go. ⁓ i i and it's not because I'm going I have a sign that says, I suffer, pick on me. It's just because God has allowed me to l live this life and I've had the strength He's given me to to do it and continue to go forward. I you know, I may not be able to do what everybody does, but I everything I do I do it with all my heart. Mm. And as a result, when someone struggles, I I I kinda in my head go, I know that song. Mm-hmm. I I know what they're singing. And so I can step up and gently be a support to them. And let them let them still it's their battle, not my battle. But I can be there in their battle and I can say, you know, this is what it feels like and this is what God did with me, and maybe if you tried, he would do something like that for you. Yeah, maybe it makes a wonderful difference to to know we could the Bible tells us to bear each other's burdens. Right. So, you know, when it's easy, anybody can bear the burdens. When it gets hard. That's when you you find out who your closest fr family are. Because the ones that aren't it aren't in this deep are gonna kinda they're gonna they're gonna go and I g I need to go back in the sh the j the d the light into the pool. ⁓ I I'm uncomfortable in this deep end with all this suffering. And and they're not ⁓ they're not being mean, they're just they're not equipped to be able to endure. They don't know what to do. They don't even know what to say. Whereas ⁓ some of us who've been around the block, We understand already. And we c so and it doesn't matter whether you've you've been through drugs or alcohol or or abuse or whatever it is, y when God takes you through and and you develop in intimate knowledge with him through your your your battles, then you are now equipped to be a support to someone else when they go through similar battles. Yeah. Yeah, a yeah, amen. And a and people who are suffering, I think, are more inclined to receive comfort from somebody who they also know has suffered. Yeah. Yeah, ⁓ and and I think that's that's important. ⁓ when I wrote I I I waited forty years to write my book. ⁓ because people have been asking for over forty years for me to do it, but one of my challenges medically is I had a traumatic brain injury. And so I can't write, right. So I finally they came up with software I could dictate it. And so but but I'm finding people now that are reaching out to me saying, Your book changed my life. Because your suffering it matches my suffering. And I f you give me hope that I didn't have. So, you know, I I understand now how important it was that that book go out Even if it meant sacrifice and hard work and everything else, ⁓ it was worth the struggle because I'm helping others. Mm. And that's the same with all of us. Our our our life story is is our history. It's our it it's it's our resource library. And when the when we have a victory, it's not just a victory for us, but it's God vic God's victory through us to someone else who needs it. Yeah. Amen. Yeah. Yeah th Keep going. Yeah, th that is how God works, yeah. That's that's how this you know th that that is the reality that we're living in. it's a reality filled with suffering and and God you know, works th through those very means. So Absolutely. so now if i in g in caregiving, since you had done do a lot of that ⁓ how how how would should we embrace that if that becomes our our lot in life? well, ⁓ again I would say you have to be leaning on on the Lord God, the true and living God, ⁓ through the Holy Spirit and and ⁓ look for strength in him but but also look to do what the Lord Jesus said and and deny yourself. ⁓ If you ⁓ are in a i in a position where you are having to give c caregiving that really costs an awful lot like it you know it's one thing to to you know, make a person a meal who's feeling sick or or that sort of thing, or give somebody first place in line, but if if you're called to a place where your your your caregiving ⁓ requires that you forfeit your your your worldly dreams and your bucket lists and whatever, that's you know, that's an al that's an altogether different place, ⁓ that's a different world. so ⁓ come to a place where you can see that as a privilege. you know, Paul said that our momentary light affliction here isn't worthy to be compared with the eternal weight of glory that awaits us in the life to come. ⁓ keep your eyes on the end goal. ⁓ you know, what Paul said really is true. I sh I shouldn't even say what Paul said, what the Holy Spirit said through the pen of Paul ⁓ r really is true. ⁓ Yeah, how is it that he could call his afflictions momentary in light? ⁓ they were anything but momentary in light by a worldly metric or a worldly perspective. ⁓ well because he had his eyes on the end goal, you know, he knew that this life is very short and that no matter how difficult it is, it's it's it's really nothing in comparison to the weight of glory that awaits those who are truly truly serve the Lord. So if we have that perspective, then we can see we can see that caregiving even when it's very difficult and very costly. ⁓ we can see that as a privilege, you know. The world invests their time and their money in silly trifling things like, you know, hunting trips and new boats and big houses. ⁓ and a and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with those things per se, but If they become ultimate things, well you're you're really kind of missing out. You know, we we get ⁓ people who are are are ⁓ caregivers, especially caregivers that you know, w when it really costs us everything, w we get to invest in things that are far, far more valuable. ⁓ we get to to invest in things that have eternal value. ⁓ So i it's a matter of perspective, right, wouldn't wouldn't you say? Absolutely. And I I think the the key to caregiving i i is that ⁓ p I I've had people say, Well I didn't sign up for this, why do I want why do I want to endure it? Well, the fact that you chose each other and w there's you, there's her, and there's God. Mhm. And for to be a successful marriage it takes the three of you. And if you try to do this by yourself without putting God in it, you're carrying God's weight. Yeah. You're trying to play God. And no wonder it's crushing you. Right. And that's when why p a lot of people who don't have this peace in their marriage, when it gets hard, they split because they they don't have within them and don't necessarily want to have within them the lifestyle that's inconvenient that doesn't allow you to to d to go and to do and to play like everybody else. Yep. but if if our sacrifice is in the is God get takes care of us and he what he sacrificed in Jesus for us, he tells us then to love each other like he loved us. Then with our dap different mindset, it's not too much for God to ask you to reach out to the suffering person. Right. And know that God is going to minister to you so you can administer to them. Yeah. So the strength is a is a connection. Yeah. And when it gets hard and you get on your knees and say, I can't do this anymore, God's not mad. He's saying, Yes you can. Yeah. And here's how. And I'll help you with it. Right. Right. And that is such a relief. Yes, yes. And a and and my experience has been that he I had a friend who's a pastor and I I ran into him, I hadn't seen him in years and I we went to a ministers meeting and he sat down next to me, he says, Haven't seen you in years I said, Well I just I retired and came back to town, so now I get to see you again He said, did you know that my wife died? I said, No, I I'm sorry and he said, Well, she was very, very sick for eight years Hm and I said, How sick? And he said, ⁓ I had I had to feed her I had to clothe her. I had to bathe her. I had to I had to clean her after she went to the restroom. Every single thing she needed. She couldn't even move. I had to roll her over to change the sheets for eight years. Wow. And I said, And he said, and I would not it was hard. He said, I've never done anything so hard. But I I'm changed from it. I don't know I I don't need a lot of the things I thought I needed. Amen. But what I got is I'm a stronger man, I'm a more compassionate man. I'm not worried about me so much as I was. And now I joined a group, a support group, with other people struggling, so that I can be there for them like God was there for me. And I thought, wow. So y And I I almost said so that means you win. And and someone interrupted us and I didn't get to say the sentence, but that's what I thought is because of you allowing God to be the centerpiece of that triangle, mm-hmm, you had enough God, enough strength, enough hope. enough patience, enough of everything you needed, that by clinging to God so he could keep pumping the great all that good stuff into you, you had more than enough to take care of the need. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. Very good. Amen. And that I'm grateful for that. ⁓ it was I needed to hear that when his when he said it, I needed to hear it. ⁓ I don't know if he went around the room and told everybody all that, but I needed to hear it. And God sent it to me. Yeah. Yep. So and when we do these the a podcast like this, we interview, w and that so what would you at the end of every podcast we invite our guests to to leave a n a golden nugget. Something that that people can mull on and dwell over over over the next ⁓ weeks to come. What would you give what would you give our views viewers and listeners as a golden nugget for them to dw to consider, to to meditate on, w to prair pray over? However they however they process this kind of thing, what would you like to leave and give to them? Sure, okay, yeah. So I could I could reiterate a lot of things that we've said already, but instead of doing that I'll I'll I'll ⁓ toss in something we haven't haven't said yet. ⁓ my I I mentioned my daughter had a had a philosophical mind and all these things that we talked about here that I believe are are are very true, I believe they're objectively true, are all things that that she was able to push back against and ⁓ you know, for example, isn't there some s you know, isn't there some way that God could sanctify us without trials? Or isn't there s or i other people wouldn't need us to come alongside them and and lead by example if if I can put it that way, you know, show how ⁓ God was faithful to me and s and he will be faithful to you. We wouldn't need that. They wouldn't need that kind of comfort if if there were no suffering in this world. And couldn't an all powerful God ⁓ create a world where there is no suffering and so forth and and ⁓ you know there are there are ways that that we can push back against these these very right and very true things that we said. and the place that and I don't need to get into all the details ⁓ right now, but the but the place where I think we we have to end up as as followers of the true God and this is a this is a place that we that we cannot push back against any further, is that hi his ways really are higher than our ways. my my daughter Bethany one night ⁓ she would have what we called badness. It it included the sound sensitivity and the bad seizures and extreme pain and sometimes these episodes would go on for hours and it was like two or three in the morning and I'd been up with her through one of these bad episodes and and, you know, she was, you know, questioning God and accusing him of subjecting her to pointless suffering and that sort of thing and and, you know, we we rehearsed a lot of these arguments and answers and so forth and and What really resonated with her was when I told her that that respecting God's you know, his hi his transcendence and his his his plan and so transcendence simply means his above and beyondness, you know, he's ⁓ his ways being much higher than ours. ⁓ respecting all that, we we really are kinda like clams in in our understanding. Now we're not clams in every way, we're human beings made in the image of God, deeply loved by him. But respecting our our insight into the into the secret things of God, you know, we we don't have any insight into the secret things of God. His ways really are higher than our ways. We have insight into the ways of God in in many areas, but but respecting y you know the secret council, I I'm reminded of Job. ⁓ all throughout the book of Job he you know, he he wanted an audience with God. He wanted God to explain why these things are happening. And we get to the end of the book and God finally answered him and he he never told him why. He simply said, you know, My ways are higher than your ways. I'm God and you're not He spent I think it was three chapters, you know, telling Job, Who is this who who ⁓ goodness, how is it how is it worded? who who who darkens counsel with words without knowledge. Who is this that darkens counsel with words without knowledge? And ⁓ you know, where were you, Job, when I, you know, created the universe? And where w where were you when I did this and that? And and the place where Job ended up, and I think the right place is, yes, you're right, Lord, I I repent, I put my hand over my mouth. So I guess the nugget that I would leave your audience with is you might not get answers to all your Hawaii questions. You know, the answers that we give you might be answers that you can, you know, with a you know natural philosophical mind can push back against. But y what you have to accept is there there is a God, there has to be a God, and he has to be transcendent. You know, again, big fancy sounding word, but a word that simply means above and beyond. And, you know, his ways are higher than our ways. But there are things that we can actually know about him. We can know that he is a gracious God, a merciful God, a holy God, a a just God, and a God who deeply loves his people. So I take great comfort in in knowing that his ways are higher than my ways. I take great comfort and also knowing that he's my Abba Father, you know, the one whose you know, laugh we can sit on. You know, the creator of the universe is my Abba Father, that's amazing. and I take great comfort as well in knowing that that he hasn't ⁓ left us in a world filled with suffering that he's estranged from. You know, he's walked with us through the valley of the shadow of death. ⁓ he's suffered with us. ⁓ in fact I think that what's more poignant than that, more important than that, is he suffered for us. The Lord Jesus, God in human flesh, ⁓ came to actually suffer for us. And and if we think and I'll I'll stop after this, but i i if we think that that the atonement, the Lord suffering in our place to pay the penalty for our sins, if we think all that was was you know, Jesus having a a few really rough hours and then it's over, I think we miss it. You know, he came under the wrath of God. We can't understand that. You know, My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? ⁓ there was ⁓ I think the physical suffering on the cross was was the tiny portion of it. ⁓ you know, he he he bore the sins of his people, he bore the you know, the pains and the sufferings of his people. So in a way that we can't comprehend. So So no matter how much you suffered, he's suffered more i and and a lot infinitely more, I think. ⁓ and this is the Lord, ⁓ you know, this is the this is the the omnipotent sovereign one who who ⁓ holds all the universe together. ⁓ he hasn't left you in a world that he's unfamiliar with. So I I guess the nugget I would leave him with, if I could kinda condense this, is is his ways are higher than your ways, and he knows your suffering and he knows it intimately, and he died for you. Amen. That is well said. And I I'm sure that there are folks among us who will who will get something important out of it personally to for them. ⁓ you know and you know I I'm I'm of the opinion that ⁓ I won't have all the answers till I see him face to face. Amen. I'm okay with that. Me too. ⁓ because what he has shown as I've made myself available to him has been so powerful that I'm willing to wait for the rest. Amen. Because well it's like the three year old who says, I know everything, Dad. Just just get out of my way, let me do it. And they and then you come talk to the thirteen year old and she says, Dad, Dad, you're embarrassing me now. I know so much more than you. And each at each different view at different ages is It's a different inner relationship based on what knowledge they know. When we finally get to a point where we realize God is the Heavenly Father, the perfect one, the all knowing one. And He knows us. And He knows we can't if we if He gave it and dropped it in our lap we couldn't handle it. Right. That's why we don't give the three year old a ⁓ a a surgical weapon, surgical tool. Because they're they may think they know what to do, but they're gonna do d do damage not good. So God is giving us what we can manage. But one day when we see him face to face, if it's important to us, he'll be glad to reveal it to us. But right now we just need to live in the world that we can handle, that we can manage, and trust him to be God over the rest. Yeah. And that will change everything. Amen. Yeah. Yep. Well, now ⁓ it's time for you to tell me about the book. Okay. ⁓ it's it's a book ⁓ that really kind of was inspired by my daughter's philosophical mind and you know pushing back against the answers that I was giving her. ⁓ the the name of the book is A Different World, and then the subtitle God's Sovereignty in the Face of Suffering. And I think too ⁓ too often people try to find the answer to these, you know, the hard questions ⁓ by denying the doctrine of God's sovereignty, denying that, you know, there is a God who really ultimately isn't co is in control. And I think that's a mistake. I think the answer is found in God's sovereignty. ⁓ He is a God who's in control. and and there's a whole lot that we can tease out of that that I I'll leave that as a teaser if you wanna you you wanna know, you know, by the book. But ⁓ but I don't I hate that sounds awful. I hate you know these shameless sounding plugs for but anyway. ⁓ but you know the book gets in into a whole lot more detail. ⁓ it it's it's rather philosophical in places and ⁓ if you don't have a philosophical mind then there may s be some chapters that you skip over. ⁓ but essentially it it's about essentially it tells my my story, my family's story. And then seeks to give answers to some of the very difficult questions. You know, if there's a God who's all powerful and all wise and all loving, then how is it there can be so much suffering in this world? And to put it the way that some some ⁓ humanist philosophers like ⁓ David Hume and Ernst Heckel put it, ⁓ if there's a God who cannot make mistakes, then why are there so many mistakes in this world? and ⁓ well my short answer is that my short answer is there are no mistakes. ⁓ God has ordained the world that he has for a reason and we may not understand that reason in this life, like the three year old that you mentioned or the thirteen year old. but I think we can know that this God exists and I think we can know that that that He is in in charge, that He He's in control. and then the book gets into how it actually is a privilege to go through suffering. It refines our faith ⁓ it draws us closer to God. It it affords the opportunity to glorify him in ways that we couldn't have had we not suffered. ⁓ you know, i if i if life delivers circumstances that the world would see as as ⁓ fit grounds to ⁓ curse God to his face, but instead we love him all the more, ⁓ then we then we've glorified him i glorified him in ways that that we wouldn't have been been able to had we not had the suffering. So anyway ⁓ that's the I guess the b the the briefest synopsis. Okay. And and the ne and so you're also we're also willing to post ⁓ up ⁓ on the on the screen the ⁓ the website for the ministry that you're involved in so people can learn more about what you do when when you're not on on podcasts with me. Yep, sure. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I ⁓ I'm deeply involved in a very small ministry here in central Maine called Corumdeo Farm. Corumdeo is C O R A ⁓ D E O, and it's simply Latin for before the face of God. And ⁓ we're we're seeking to ⁓ essentially shine the light of the gospel in a very dark part of the world. There there's an awful lot of witchcraft here in in in central Maine. In fact we've come under attack spiritually, ⁓ in i very interesting ways. I think maybe and I don't know i if this is gonna be too weird for your viewers and but ⁓ I'm sorry, y ya viewers and listeners, but I think we've come under attack by ⁓ astral projection from covens and that sort of thing, so it's it's it's a really dark part of the world and we're seeking to shine the light of the gospel. We're holding a lot of events. ⁓ and the reason it's called Coromdale Farm is actually an active farm here. but the main objective is to expose people to a biblical worldview. And we hold a couple of monthly events every month. One that that really is kind of kinda aimed more toward Christians and you know, where we get together and we pick some doctrinal topic to, you know, kind of beat around a little. And then we've got another monthly event every month that we call Worldview Night where we have topics that might not be overtly Christian. ⁓ we've had a a a retired doctor come talk about medical things and we've had a another farmer in the area come and talk about ⁓ you know, better farming methods and that sort of thing. But the real objective is to introduce people to a biblical Christian worldview and we have a lot of unbelievers coming and i we've had a lot of wonderful opportunities. Awesome. Yeah. And and then one other aspect actually is we We're we're kinda gravitating toward being watchmen. I think we're in very dark times. ⁓ I think possibly even even heading toward end times, ⁓ you know, when we see the things that are happening on on a global scale and so we have you know some focus on that as well. Yeah. You know, trying to trying to be trying to be watchmen and just like our Lord commanded us to be. Amen. I am so grateful for your ⁓ sharing all that. ⁓ as we get down to the to to the last final moments, ⁓ I'd like to pray and then ⁓ after we pray I'll give it a bit a bit of a challenge and then ⁓ we will look forward to ⁓ getting to know you even better in another podcast in the future. But ⁓ right now, ⁓ let's pray and and and close this session and ⁓ and and that way people can go back on to with their lives for the moment, but they can take their golden nugget with them and consider it even after we're gone. Let's pray. Heavenly Father, we're th we're grateful for the privilege we have to be together. We're grateful for all the viewers and listeners that are that are involved in our in our program. We're we pray that something that's been said or been that's been shared will reach a heart. If if they've been struggling that it'll give ⁓ some strength. If they've if they're they're suffering from from things that are external, Lord, give them grace and to trust you. In spite of people, in spite of misbehavior. Lord help them to to not bl throw you out because of the people who weren't w worthy the way they lived. Lord, give them cre give them all grace and strength. Give them knowledge to understand what your will is and to reveal yourself to them. Draw them close to you through your Holy Spirit and your love and make a difference in their lives to f to the glory of God. For those that are struggling physically, be there with them and bless them in Jesus' name. Amen. And amen. Amen. So seek after God. He will be found. You want to know him better? Seek Jesus. He is the way to God. This has been the God Says Yes podcast with David Ebel. To connect with David, email him at God Says Yes Podcast at Gmo. You can get his latest book, When the Doctors Say No, God Says Yes, at Amazon.com.