Steve Ward

David W Ebel: you Welcome to the God Says Yes podcast. You are welcome here. Hi, welcome to another version of God Says Yes. My name is David Ebel. I'm your host. And after 50 plus years of ministry, loving people and helping them be encouraged and motivated, this podcast is a continuation of God's love to you and how he wants to do beautiful things in your life. Many of our viewers come to us needing a safe place and this is what this is. It's a safe place. No judgment here. No, I'm better than anybody. We're just here to love you with the love that God has given us. You're custom made by God, every one of you. None of us get by without being loved by God because we were created from the beginning with his love. We were created to be like him from the inside out. The outside doesn't have to look like each other because that's not the part that looks like him. But the part that looks like Him gives us love and hope and joy and peace and healing and deliverance and all those good things when we need it as long as we open our hearts and continue to trust. So when you've been lied to or abused or done too wrong or even hurt at church, unfortunately, sometimes that happens. It's not right, but the church is supposed to be the emergency room with the body of Christ. And not everybody who comes into the emergency room comes in going, ⁓ goody, some come in kicking and screaming. And unfortunately, before they get their self together with the Lord, they sometimes can splash off some stuff onto the rest of the believers that hurts. On behalf of the body of Christ, I apologize for that. It is not excusable, but it does happen. But that's why we cling to Jesus as our way to God and skip the buildings, skip all the other pieces and develop our personal relationship with God. And if it's been hard, we draw closer so we can do more. If we live in pain, we can trust him, the great healer, to give us healing physically, emotionally. psychologically, whatever way the healing needs to happen, God can do that. And he can do it for you and in you. So today, this is our day for us to talk more about that. And I have with me my brother, Steve Ward. Steve is a serious believer who loves God and is glad to come on to share his story. So welcome, Steve. Would you introduce yourself? Thank you, David. It is a pleasure and an honor to be here. I appreciate it. As David said, I'm Steve Ward. I was in the business world for a long time, but eight years ago, I felt led to leave and start a faith-based nonprofit called Steps Ministries. So we look to provide help, healing, and hope to hurting people, of which there are many these days. So I've been enjoying the last eight years doing nonprofit ministry work. I have a wonderful family, a beautiful wife, and two grown sons, and God is good. Well, I'm so glad you're here and thank you for letting us get to know you so you're not just a face on the page. You're part of our family. We look at this podcast as people sitting around the couch in the living room. And so there's the two of us and the viewer is the third person in the room. And we hope that between all that we've said and done, that people can be encouraged. That would be what we'd love. So Steve, why don't you start us off with your story? Well, for this audience, I think I need to go back to the before. You know, I ⁓ grew up going to church, but as kids and teenagers are, it really wasn't that big a part of my life. So as I entered the adult world, I had gotten an engineering degree and started out in business and I didn't have anything against God. I just wasn't paying a lot of attention to him in my twenties. When I look back on my 20s and early 30s, it's almost, I can think of the story like it's told in Ecclesiastes, right? Where I was looking for something that had deeper meaning and purpose to it, and I didn't even know what I was looking. So I was trying out different lifestyles. know, I tried enjoyment, whether that meant just fun and excitement and adventure or doing what felt fun to me. And ⁓ that didn't. seemed to work. Yes, it was fun, but it didn't bring satisfaction. ⁓ I threw myself into my work and career hoping that accomplishment and recognition would do it. And yes, that's a part of us as well. So, you know, we're asked to be good stewards and into work. So, but it wasn't ultimately satisfying either. Somewhere along the way, I'd found that, you one of my favorite coping habits for dealing with life was alcohol. And I did become an alcoholic for a significant number of years. But as you can guess, ⁓ that certainly doesn't bring satisfaction or pleasure along the way. So I was trying out all these different lifestyles and trying to find one that worked. And I didn't know what I didn't know. I didn't quite know what it was that I was missing. Not dissimilar to how we think Solomon told his story in Ecclesiastes. But then as I got into my late 30s, things changed and I started searching more earnestly for purpose and meaning and eventually found it at that point. So that's where the next part of the story goes. But the first part was on the outside, everything seemed to be like we had life knocked out pretty well. But inside I was looking for more and I didn't know what I didn't know. So I didn't quite know what I was searching for. ⁓ I think that's a ⁓ part of the journey that many of us share, right? That early on, you know, we all yearn for meaning and purpose and identity and contribution and community and things like that. And if we don't find it, if we don't allow God to give us his vision of it, we look for it in the wrong places. ⁓ yeah, absolutely. ⁓ It doesn't matter who we've talked to, not just on the podcast, but in life. I have run into people in every walk of life from homeless all to to multimillionaires. And I have found that many people don't find satisfaction no matter what they do. And then when they usually as a second door, an afterthought, they'll say, what about God? And they're not disrespecting God. They just didn't make him a priority. As a result, they tried everything else. when it all Solomon said was it ⁓ that everything is all about just about tactile things. It's pleasure for a moment, but it doesn't last. And we're all looking for something that lasts, something gives peace that makes us feel like we're whole. And when people finally do find Jesus for themselves. ⁓ I remember a businessman out of Detroit who was a multimillionaire. owned ⁓ a large bunch group of two different corporate restaurant chains. And ⁓ he had it all. And he I met him and out of nowhere, he just turned to me and said, Why are you so happy? And I was able to share Jesus with him. And he said, But I've gone to church on and off my whole life. And I said, And he said, And I have nothing. And I said, well, maybe it's the church is the problem because you're not trusting the one we're supposed to go to church for. What about start with Jesus and working your way out instead of working at the building and working your way in. And he did in his life thrived and doors that he never, tried to open, he couldn't open. They came to him and said, what if, how about you seems so solid and so stable. Let's do business together. And he said, yes, but you need to understand I am a Christian and we do it my way or we don't do it. And ⁓ found two corporates that would usually say no to everything, say, well, for you, OK, we'll change. Why? Because he put God first. And so I can I can totally understand. So, Steve, tell us more of your story. Yeah, well, a minute ago, I mentioned five words which were I think ⁓ timeless values that God has placed on our heart. mentioned ⁓ community, meaning. purpose, identity, and contribution. And what I do now at Stets Ministries, we research and create resources for people to find help, healing, and hope, and live life better, and grow closer to God in the process. And I've found that those five values are ⁓ almost omnipresent in our lives if we look for them. So when I look back on the milestones of my life, I think God presented each of those five to me at different times. ⁓ In his wisdom, he started with the concept of community because in my thirties, again, I was, if you had met me, it's a pretty nice guy, right? He's not out robbing banks or doing anything, but as are most of us, right? was, I was mostly thinking about myself. And when I met the woman who would become my wife and we got married and then had one child and another, I'll be darned. I woke up one day thinking, you know, I actually. love those people more than myself. I actually cared for something more than myself. That was, it sounds funny to say, but that was a breakthrough for me. Now at that point, God was still just an afterthought in my life. But I think, you know, God is very creative on how he ⁓ guides our journey. And I think he just, he just used that as a way to introduce me to the, what we all know or eventually figure out is that life is not all about us. Yeah, you know in the the the second one he led me to was was meaning so you know we had a you know a couple of small kids and I was kind of thinking well What do young families do a lot of them go to church? That's what I guess my parents did maybe we ought to think about this concept of going to church and it was almost like a cultural that's just what young families do kind of a thing rather than a you know a spiritual leading So I started thinking more about church things and I'm an engineer by training so I'm very methodical and I'm kind of left brain oriented and the more I learned about God the more fascinated I was. So in my late 30s I actually marked on I think I labeled it this at the time I called it a search for truth. I said you know if all these religions and Christian religions talk about God and if if there is such a thing as God it seems like that's pretty important to know about so maybe I'd go investigate it. So I read dozens and dozens of books about the Bible and Jesus and God and over the course of that you know my left brain orientation I became intellectually convinced that it was all absolutely true. You know that the Bible was true and Jesus was at who he said he was and that he came to earth to live and die for us. so intellectually I was there, but there was still something missing at that point. you know, God introduced me to meaning, you know, for the first time I'm seeing meaning at a different level. But like I said, I think a bit of the heart was missing at that point. And so in God's grace, we happened to move to another city at that point. And By now we were going to church, right? was still figuring out this God thing. ⁓ and there was a church about a mile from where we live. we drove past it 50 times and finally we said, well, why don't we try that out? And went in there and just met a wonderful, wonderful group of, of Christian people. And this was back in the day, some of your listeners may not be familiar with it, but there was a movement back then called Promise Keepers, which was a large scale. evangelical outreach kind of effort where they were filling football stadiums with, ⁓ with, I get it, primarily men, but those who were seeking to know more about Jesus. And, know, I, kind of intellectually was good with that, but this group of new friends said, Hey, we're going to promise keepers event in Jacksonville in a couple weeks. You want to go? And in a moment of weakness, said, well, yeah. And then I'm trying to think, okay, I'm not sure what I've got myself into, but. On that night, we drove up there and there were, I don't know, 20 or 25 guys. We walked into this football stadium and it was nighttime. So we went up the back way and walked out into the upper deck. And I looked down at 70,000 men that were gathered there to get to know or to worship Jesus Christ. And I think God hit me between the eyes with a two by four. Because in that moment, it just became startlingly clear. that God had laid these milestones in my life that were leading me to that moment and to that time. that's when everything became, as I said, crystal clear and where meaning in its deepest context became real. In other words, it's lip service, I think, to say that we know the meaning of life if we're just attaching it to something that's temporary. Real meaning comes... when you're talking about getting to know the creator of the universe and one who loves us personally and intentionally. And so that was just an incredible breakthrough. And so that's the early part of ⁓ into my young 40s now where God introduced me first to community and then to meaning as part of that journey. I love it. Promise Keepers was a big thing for me. When it started, ⁓ I was pastoring and I loaded up every vehicle we could go and we all went together. And ⁓ it encouraged me, but you could just, it was like lightning bolt striking all over the building. You could just see the men who came in like, ⁓ I'm a macho man, you can't touch me. And about three or four songs in, you could see the tears start. And by the time it was time to pray, These guys were elbowing each other out of the way to get down to go pray. For the first time ever, they looked guilty almost, but they couldn't stop crying and they knew they had to do it. And they got up on their own, no motivation from anybody else, no pressure, no coercing of any kind. And they went and they gave their lives to Jesus. And then when they came back, they were hugging everybody. just, they've never touched people usually and they're hugging and crying and it changed lives. people swapping phone numbers for out of state that they were going to help, they were going to help each other make it. And it was, it was, it was world shaking and the lives that were changed were changed for good. you're Steve, you're proof, you're living proof of the ministry that God did through that period. They're still alive by the way. They still have promise keepers. It's just a little smaller than it used to be. Yeah. I actually participated in two or three of their afterlives. They went from a period of football stadiums down to football arena, I mean, to basketball arenas. But the coolest one was, maybe this was 10 years or so ago when my younger son was about 17 and he had come to faith in the sixth grade in his church youth group. So Promise Keepers then was having like hotel room ball, like 4,000 people in a room kind of events. And to go to that with your son and to be standing next to him when he's. Sincerely worship, you know, that's about as good as it gets to tell you the truth, you know, and so, yeah, it is a movement that's meant a lot to me. One of the Promise Keeper events, both of my sons went with me, along with all the men of the church. And my sons were preacher's kids and they weren't so sure they were excited about all this, but they saw how excited I was. So they went to make me happy. didn't, they weren't coerced, they pushed me, but. underlying was, this is time spent with that, more than it was, you know, I'm seeking Jesus. But ⁓ halfway through it, the one who was least interested was crying. And they were touched. God takes care of the whole life. So a great moment is not the end of the story, it's the beginning of the story. And so they still are living out their lives and God is still working in their lives. at the end of the story, then we'll know exactly. But ministry where love is shared is powerful ministry. you're right. There's one. I don't know. You know, God is very mysterious, right? mean, different people have different journeys. Like my wife is one of the, there's millions of people like this, right? Who can't distinctly put her finger on that moment, when she became a believer. You know, she just always thought that she was, you know, whereas for me, it was relatively distinct for me. I, and I think it, it varies, but however it happens for people, it's like you said, right? That's the beginning of another part of the journey, right? Yes. Now the journey is different. Right now, God is traveling with us and inside of us, but we normally still have a long way to go. know, I mean, from that point, right, God still led me toward a part of the journey to find my purpose and then to find identity and contribution. And those are different aspects, different chapters of the story themselves. Right. So he continues to shape us ⁓ all along the way. as long as we're open, he will continue. And if we... when we do get hurt or we do get disappointed or someone in the church acts out or does something foolish and we kind of pull away, it kind of take, it's like the garden hose that's at full capacity in the middle of the summer and the kid is holding it over his head and he's feeling all the benefit. And then my daughter and my son when they were toddlers had that hose and he was holding it over and getting all wet and then his sister wanted it. So he handed it to her and as she went to do it like this, he kinked the hose and she. looked at it and nothing came out and she was very concerned. And he said, look again, and he let go of the hose and whoosh. And she just, she didn't get it. as you know, it's, how it is with God and us. When we don't leave the open conduit of His love available, there's a kink. And it can be our stubbornness, it can be our woundedness, it can be our unforgiveness, it can be anything, but something stops that blessing from being at full volume that God wants to do. And it doesn't stop the water pressure still there. It's just God has to have that appointment where we finally say, all right, God, I let go. know, regardless of them, I choose you. Yeah. They could do their wrong thing and they'll answer to you. But for the sake of my soul, I'm going to forgive what they've done to me. I'm going to let go of it so that I can give you all of me. And when you surrender all of you. That's the beginning of freedom again. That's the open host. That's the blessing. Yeah. And what's cool, right, is, you know, when you do become a believer, at least then you kind of, at least you know what you don't know and you know what you know at that point, right? So at that point you accept that God is real and that God is with you and that he loves you and he wants to travel with you. And one of the fun things about that is it opens your eyes to be more aware of what he's doing around you. You know, cause, but still it's, it's a journey and it's a gross experience from there, you know, cause I was, so I was 40 years old, right. When, that event that I just mentioned occurred and I, you know, I think for that first year I was on, on fire for God, but I kind of didn't know where to direct my energies. know, I'm, kind of just running around doing everything that I could do that because it felt like the right thing, but I was still looking, I think for something that was more central, like a sense of purpose. and God in His grace found a way to lead me to that as well. I think I was probably still relying on my own instincts. So I went to an engineering school and I was in business, right? So we're trained to control and do things on our own. So even if I become a Christian, yes, I had surrendered my heart, but on a day-to-day basis, I still tended to write to, okay, it's time for me to go plan and do and control. You know, but I knew, right, that there was something bigger that I was supposed to do, but I didn't quite know what it was. And I think it is a relatively young Christian at the age of 41. Right. I was, I was searching, but I wasn't finding it. And I was with IBM for a long time. Right. So I used to take a lot of business trips with them and I'd gone up to New York one day and this was just going to be an up and back trip. And. So that evening, was time to come home and I was sitting on an airplane in LaGuardia Airport, contemplating, know, God, what do you have in mind for me? You know, and I'm sitting there thinking about this. And then right before, you know, they closed the doors to the airplane, a gentleman gets on and sits next to me. And it was Dr. J who was Julius Erving. He's carrying the book, Mere Christianity. And he sat next to me. What he didn't know was that 18 hours earlier back home in Orlando, I'd been meeting with a young pastor at an inner city church asking him, know, Larry, what can I or our Sunday school group do to help your church? And what Larry had said to me was, I think we need to sponsor a big Christmas event, invite 500 people from the neighborhood in and give them a sumptuous meal and provide more gifts for their kids than they could possibly imagine. have the speaker give them the gospel and we need a speaker that will attract them. And I think we need to have Julius Irving come speak to us. The day before when I'd heard that, I'd written that off as a fantasy, right? I'd said, you know, everybody in the world would love to have Dr. J come speak to him. And less than 24 hours later, he sat next to me on an airplane. So I think in in my, you know, young Christian journey, was God had probably been sending me signals about purpose. Yeah, for a while and I'd probably been missing them. So finally, I kind of think of the analogy of you. If you have a little kid, you know, you don't throw a fastball to him. If you're teaching him how to play baseball, you kind of throw it underhand. I think that was God kind of giving me a pitch that I could hit to say, okay, now there's no way you can miss this one. So point being when Julius Irving sat next to me, I said, Mr Irving, I think I'm supposed to ask you something. If we hold an event in six weeks, would you come and speak at it? He eventually said yes. So that journey, which went on, led me toward identifying that. I think my purpose is to help hurting people, find encouragement and find help and hope. Because that event was in an inner city neighborhood, right? Where a lot of people didn't have hope. And Mr. Irving was gracious enough to be a part of that. But I think that was God introducing me to a purpose that was bigger than me, that was part of my journey. That's amazing. I love it when God does something like that. Our ministry included a, ⁓ our first active official ministry was the ghetto of Detroit in a very, very, very violent area. And we helped the church restart. Another denomination bought this old building that was handcrafted by German Baptists. They had carved every piece of wood by hand. I mean, it was gorgeous. But the neighborhood got so bad, they sold it for almost nothing. And this new church came in and I ended up helping him out for about five and a half years. And one of the things I did is I opened a Christian coffee house because it was in this, it was a five cornered street and one was a strip bar, one was a redneck bar, one was a biker. I mean, and then there was the corner with the new Ark Christian coffee house. And we called it the new Ark because just like Noah was gathering all all the animal sins before the disaster hit, these people who walked these streets needed a place to come out of the storm before the flood destroyed them. in a period of four years, we won hundreds of people to the Lord. it wasn't something I did. was just something that I was motivated by God to be obedient to. And piece by piece, all these every Every domino fell just exactly right. And, some of the first people we led to the Lord ended up running the coffee house. And I mean, these things you can't create, these things are happening because you're available. And why you're available is because you have taken the step of faith to trust God regardless. Regardless is a big word. It's just like, he says, he never leaves us or forsakes us. He's with us. Always. Always is a word you can't get away from. When it's good, he's always there. When it's terrible, he's always there. When you hurt like crazy, he's always there. When things are confusing and you don't know what to do, he's always there. And sometimes he says yes, and sometimes he says wait, and sometimes he's the all-knowing father who knows that you can't run in front of traffic when you're a little kid. And then he says no. But it's never to punish, it's always to protect. Inspire, renew, rebuilding, and to move forward. That's what he wants us to do, to become a whole beings and beings that he can love through. we not only, he doesn't only fix us, but then he fixes other people through us. We become that, a soda straw on a hot day. when you got the big drink in your hand, but you can't get it to your mouth because there's straws missing. When we become the soda straw, the vessel, and we can take the good stuff of God and get it to the thirsty person. What a blessing we are. But when it's done, they throw the straw away and never say, man, that was a great straw. And that's the kind of person we need to be the one that's willing to be the vessel, but not get the credit. just love people because he loves us and gives us the ability to love them. And that's where lives change. Wouldn't you agree? Yeah. There's a billion things that are amazing about God. One of them is that he knows each of us individually. Right. And we all have. our own journey and they have similarities, but they also have a lot of differences. And, you know, when I mentioned that Dr. story, I'm probably, you know, one year into being a, a, a sincere Christian at that point, you know, and, ⁓ at that point in time, I was genuinely on fire for God, but I was also compartmentalizing a part of myself that I wasn't bringing to him as I was an alcoholic. And I was what you would call a high functioning alcoholic, right? Is that other than my wife and probably almost no one else, no one really knew, right? I was still very productive at work. And so I don't say high functioning alcoholic to say that that means I was less than one, just the fact that I was able to trick everybody that I wasn't, you know? And I would had been, I was extremely clever at that point on building up this rationalization for why that was okay. You know, for why it was okay for me to surrender to God, God, I'm not, I don't drink at work and I'm not hurting anybody. And it's only after I get home and look at all the good church work I'm doing for you and look at what I've done in the community. And, know, I had this wonderfully in my mind, airtight rationalization for why it was okay for me be doing what I'm doing. And by the way, I don't have any issue with people drinking alcohol per se, but that's not what I was doing. Right. was an alcoholic. It was not only an addiction, it was an idol to me. Right. So that's what I'm talking about. But God and his grace let me enjoy just a few years of, of, of blissful excitement with him before he finally teed up Steve, there's something else we need to talk about. And it began to hit me that I, you know, I wasn't being a good steward of, of, my life or of my body. And. that I wasn't being obedient because I think the Bible would suggest that drunkenness is not a good thing to do. And I was being probably a stumbling block for others, right? So, you know, it became clear to me that, I'll be darned that the God to whom I would be glad to tell people about excitedly that I was disobeying him. ⁓ And more than that, I started thinking, Steve, is this what the rest of your life is going to be where you're going to cruise through it? two-thirds speed rather than, you know, lean into what God wants you to. So he led me to another catharsis that I would attach with the concept of identity, you know, and he used some really tough circumstances to do that. Right. So, you know, I was having an alcohol problem. ⁓ My wife was a, she had worked when we met, but she was a stay at home mom for a long time. And when the boys got older and they didn't depend on her anymore, She struggled with depression for a while, so she used alcohol to feel better. But it was darkest with our youngest son, who he had been raised in the church and had gone to Christian schools. But we moved cities again when he's going into middle school, and he picked a crowd that was the cool kids. And they were making a lot of bad decisions. he went down a path that included substances for almost a decade that was very, very dark. So even after I had become a Christian, We went through a few years that I think of as the dark ages because it seemed like as much as couldn't be going wrong in a family was going wrong in ours. And the good news was, is that I still knew that God was with me, right? But I can remember, you know, waking up at three o'clock in the morning. I don't know why it was three o'clock, but it seemed to be that a lot of nights. I would just, my predominant emotions would be fear and shame. You know, and I'm thinking, you know, cause We didn't know what was going to happen with our son. We were struggling. That led to marriage issues and financial problems. So I remember just praying, know, saying, you know, it was almost like I was drowning and I had this vision, not ⁓ a literal vision, but I had this image that I would put in my mind that, that, that Jesus was in a boat and he was coming toward me and he had a lifeline and I would just pray over and over again. You know, God just saved me from this, you know, not saved me. eternally anymore, but from what our life had become. I think that's where I found a deeper part of this concept of identity because ⁓ that led me ⁓ to stop drinking and my wife to stop. And I got in the world of recovery and I went to a biblically based recovery program called Celebrate Recovery, if any of those who are familiar with it. And the period of recovery was just almost a reawakening of things. Right? I had been a Christian for several years now, but to see so many people who had been through a life where they had struggled, and I mean, struggled in very significant ways. Some people who had lost everything and some people who had lost marriages and work and finances and a lot of people who had been in pain, but now see that they were on a common road of recovery and they were moving in a positive direction and they were humbly surrendering themselves. to Jesus on a regular basis. Were they still flawed individuals? Yes, they were, but they were humbly trying to do their best. I got to grasp this concept of identity to say, well, yes, I am a sinner, but I'm also a child of God. That's really the primary identity. It was just like, yes, I'm an alcoholic, but now I'm an alcoholic in recovery. We all have things that we struggle with, and none of us are perfect. But when God is with us, he will walk through that journey with us. So that concept of identity, where all these things came together. now, doing the ministry that I do now, I talk to a lot of people who are at various parts of their faith walk. Most of them don't necessarily think a lot about God. Some of them are Christians. Some of them may be of another faith. And I'll use these five values I've been talking about this community and meaning and purpose and identity and contribution as a way to have a conversation with them because those are values that we all feel that are intrinsic to us. And what is incredibly amazing is, and when you talk to someone who's never thought about this before, it really can be life changing for them is to say, well, guess what? God has given you meaning. You you have meaning. as a child of God. God has given you a purpose. He has good plans for you and He has designed things for you to do. God has given you an identity. He designed you special. You are the only you in this world and you have gifts and talents that only you have. And God has a contribution for you to give. ⁓ If you are a good steward of those talents, He can use you to do miraculous things. And that God has given you community. He wants you to walk with a series of other people in your life. As lost as many of us can feel at times, when we finally recognize that God loves us so much that he gives us meaning and purpose and identity and contribution and community, it's just, wow. It's just mind boggling. It's really exciting. It is. ⁓ listening to you tell it reminds me how many things that I've witnessed in people's lives where God has done that. sometimes he doesn't get credit for it initially. They'll think they did it. But over time, God takes us as is, warts and all. He doesn't take us and say, straighten out all these things and then I'll take you. He takes you and then he helps you deal with all these things until there's no other gods but him. You know, what runs your life becomes your God. And so whether it's worry or bitterness or fear or alcohol or pornography or whatever it is. If it's run in your life, it's a God besides the God of the universe. And God would rather take you as is and heal and deliver and set free rather than wait for you to try to just come to the realization that nothing works and you're out of desperation. I, my hands and knees, they crawl to you. He'd just as soon heal us and work in our lives now as to wait for us to suffer before that. But he's a good God. He's going to do what it takes. If the only way to solve it is to let you suffer, he will step back and say, I'm still here. When you're ready for me, I'm still here because he doesn't leave us or forsake as he's with us always. So what you're sharing is powerful. sometimes even as Christians, right? ⁓ We can have the wrong perception, right? We think, okay, I found God. So now I'm supposed to do everything just right. Well, you're still a flawed. individual. In other words, our journey will never reach perfection, this side of the grave. Even Christians are struggling with things. Sometimes even churches, maybe inadvertently, will send the message that you're supposed to be perfect. Unfortunately, sometimes when people go to church is when they are the least real and transparent in their life. They think, well, in church, I've got to act like everything is all together. You know, ⁓ but the fact of the matter is everybody sitting in a church aggregation, church congregation, every single person is struggling with something. Right. None of them are finished products. None of them are perfect, but they're probably in, they're probably not talking to anybody about it. Right. ⁓ you know, there are Christians who are alcoholics and there are Christians who, ⁓ use too many pills or they're Christians who are hooked on pornography or on gambling or on spending. And there are Christians who are. you know, their thing is pride or anger. You know, we all have things that we struggle with and our journey is different. And none of us are perfect. So I think maybe it's better if we don't try to act that way and we just, you know, be a little more transparent perhaps and let people know where we struggle so they can walk with us and so that maybe we can be there for them when they struggle as well. know, the scripture tells us to bear each other's burdens. And we can't do that if the person isn't letting us know that they have burdens. If they're not saying, I'm struggling help, the other person who says, yeah, but I've been there, done that, and I've gone through it, let me help you. He can't do that until we are transparent enough to ask for help. And, know, because once we all realize we're all sinners saved by grace, we're all forgiven because of Jesus and on our own, we could never make it. The only thing that qualifies us to go to heaven is that Jesus lived, died and rose again and took our punishment for us because no sin gets to heaven. Without the shedding of innocent blood, there's no entrance to heaven. So Jesus became the innocent blood that was shed to wash away our sins so that we would now have easy access to heaven through Jesus Christ. But that he takes us, like I said, as they are, and he works in us lovingly and helps us become who we need to be. I had somebody tell me that God made me, put me in this, God punished me with that, and God forced me to, no, that's not, there's no scripture for that. God allows those situations, those situations, he allows his Holy Spirit to re-minister to us in those situations so good can come out of the bad, but he doesn't send bad. He's there with us and good days and bad, but he's not sending stuff just to make you miserable. We live in a fallen world where Adam and Eve made a mistake that we're all inheriting. And because of the sin of this world, bad things happen. But that doesn't mean we're stuck being bad because of it. We can start out miserable, but we can have victory. We can have joy. We can have peace. We can have wonderful things happen, regardless of how we got here. Yeah. You know, ⁓ just a few hours ago, I was giving a talk to some business leaders about, I guess the title was we need to change how we think about behavioral health and behavioral health is, you know, substance abuse and mental health, but it's also behavioral health just means why we do what we do and how we can do it better. It's, it's all those behaviors that we do, which sometimes lead us in a negative direction, but if we focus on them, we can learn to live life better. And anyway, I, I, talked to them about it, this, and I was calling out how the norm is for us to not share our problems with other people. know, statistics show that, you know, of those with substance abuse, fact, the US Surgeon General was quoted one time as saying that 90 % of them are not getting help. And those people who are dealing with anxiety or depression or, know, a significant portion of those people will never see a counselor. They'll never get help. And parents who have a teenager who's struggling with something, their normal response is to not tell anybody because they're, they don't want to be seen as bad parents and they don't want their son or daughter to be labeled in any way. we tend to ⁓ myopically not be transparent to others and not be real and keep these things to ourselves, and in which case they get worse. But when we flip that around and just let those things go and share them with other people, I think that's when sometimes God does some of his best work. And he will use those instances not only to help transform us, but to help us be a vessel to help other people. Because one of the most amazing things that God will do is he will use our biggest trials and our biggest problems to allow us to be a witness to other people. Right? You know, so the fact that I can tell people that, I was an alcoholic and I was married to one and my son had drug problems allows me, it at least gives me permission to talk to other people who are struggling because I've been where they are and I know how they feel. But to know that God works in those places and that that's where he does some of his most incredible work is just, it's mind boggling. So it's very exciting and even particular for those who are really struggling. And God never wastes anything good that he does in love. So when we go through it with his help, we get victory through his power. We then become vessels of honor who now have the ability to become a gentle mirror of the love of God. So people can look in that mirror and say, well, if he could get out of it alive and do okay, I have a chance. ⁓ I don't have to stay stuck. don't have to sit at home for weeks on end and just cry. I don't have to not eat or have an eating disorder where I eat and throw up and all these other things that are control mechanisms that we use to hide a deeper problem. We can go to God and say, I can't do this. This is beyond me. All these things I've tried to control, I can't control and I'm sick. And I don't want to stay that way. And Jesus, died as the great physician. You came to heal us and deliver us and change us. And so here I am. I'm opening myself up. Do something. Please do something. And I'm going to give you everything I've got, even if it's not much. know when I gave my life to Jesus, I didn't think I had anything to offer. Nothing. And later I look back and all these things I didn't think I had. were there, I just was not in position, I didn't feel worthy to have anything good in my life. So I didn't see the good things. But once Jesus became the center of my life and I was living for him, I could use those gifts that he had planted in me long ago and allowed life to prepare me for. I could use them to bring him glory and in fact, change lives. And that doesn't make me a good David. It makes me a surrendered servant, someone who's a servant out of love, not out of duty. I don't serve God because I gotta. I serve God because I can't imagine living without it. You know, you know, our, we're born, ⁓ with an orientation towards self, right? We, we, tend to want, ⁓ what's better for us. Even sometimes when we mask that with what seemed to be noble intentions, you know, but we, have this addiction to self and we go through life that way. Um, and then we find different ways to, uh, to, address that. And that's one of things I think that really hit me about recovery, right? Is so again, I went to program called celebrate recovery. wife went to athletics, anonymous and, and both of them follow these things called the 12 steps, which most people in recovery would know what I'm talking about. if you're not, may or may not. But the 12 steps are kind of an anchor point for hundreds of programs around the world that tens of millions of people go through. So they're very, very, very prevalent. And the first book I wrote was actually trying to condense the 12 steps and bring them to the rest of the world. was actually trying to find biblically based principles that could help people deal with pain and bring those to the rest of the world was the point. But if you look at the first four of those 12 steps, I condensed those to one word, which was surrender. So when you go through recovery, the first thing you learn is that you have to accept that you weren't in control of everything in your life anymore. And that there are some things in your life that you can't manage on your own. And that you need to turn them over to a higher power who is God. And that it's only when you surrender yourself to that, is when that's when the process of recovery starts, is at the point of surrender. This has been deep. This is good stuff. I'm grateful that you've opened up your heart and you've been transparent with us because we need to hear from other people, not just people who are pastors, but people who are just regular brothers and sisters, just ordinary people. And there's nothing wrong with being ordinary. Actually, there's times when I was a young man, I wished I could be ordinary. with my medical conditions I have, would never be ordinary because I was disabled. ⁓ my goal was to be ordinary. now... ⁓ When I see people who serve God and they didn't have to be struck by lightning or have an avalanche fall on them or get swallowed by a whale, they just have life and they needed help out of the life of misery into a new life where there can be joy and peace and hope and satisfaction. That they can actually live in such a way that they can go to bed at night at peace and wake up with joy. And they can live a life that they can be proud of daily because they give it to God and God is happy with it. I can't wait to see our viewers and our listeners who are struggling to, to trust God, to be able to reach out and let him do his best work in them. And they don't have to have all the brains sorted out. They don't have to have all the details. You know, you can't take an ocean and put it in a thimble and you can't take all of God's knowledge and squeeze it in your head. It's just, just there's no room. So we have to trust. That's why God gave us all a measure of faith. The Bible tells us that faith was planted in us before we were even conceived. That measure of faith has always been there, will always be there, because otherwise we could never choose God. We could never trust what we don't see, feel, or taste. But he did do that because he wanted a relationship with us. He's longed for it from the day he created us. And he can't wait to do something good in us in spite of all the other things. Yeah. You know, I mentioned before that, you one of our primary problems is we get all mixed up on this concept of self and, and we can misuse it in two ways. Right. We, most of us have a tendency to think too much of ourself. think, ⁓ I'm enough. I'm in control. I can control the people and the circumstances and the outcomes around me. If God's in my life, He's nice to have, but I got control of this. Most of us think too much of ourself, but there's a lot of people, especially when they're struggling, who think too little of themselves. They live a life that knows shame and that knows hopelessness, and they don't see a way out. And whichever end of the spectrum you're on, you know, you need to know, but especially I'm talking to those people who are really hurting, right? That, know, you do have meaning that God has meaning and he has given you meaning and you have an identity that is unique. Absolutely to you, whether you, you see your talents or your strengths yet you are designed special. You're the only you on earth and that God has plans for you. He has good plans for you. ⁓ and he, and there are things there's. purpose that he can lead you to and there are people that he can bring into your life. That is true for absolutely anyone ⁓ who chooses to believe no matter how little they have. And even for those who think that they have life knocked, that's why sometimes those people have to go through trials or tribulations. They have to let go of that pride or that ⁓ insistence on control to finally figure out that God's the one that's in control. from whichever side of the spectrum you come from, once you figure that out, then again, all life's problems don't disappear, but your perspective on them changes. ⁓ And the way, we don't control our circumstances, right? But we have a significant control on what mindset or perspective we bring to them. And if you start from the perspective is, The God who created the universe created me and he gave me talents and he is walking with me. And as long as I turn myself over to him, everything I've done in the past is forgiven and he grants me an eternal life and he's walking with me day to day. Everything else settles into its place. Right? If we have a biblical or Christian mindset to things, the way we look at the world is different, you know, rather than thinking, well, if everything's not operating to bring me pleasure, comfort and security and money and comfort, then we're out of sync. No, no. Once we get our mindset right, life becomes more peaceful and more content and more purposeful. Boy, you've shared a lot and that's good stuff. Now, as we get closer to the end of our podcast, I always invite our guests to give us a golden nugget, something that maybe our viewers and listeners could mull over during the next week or two when they pray or meditate or however they process things. What would you leave with us that would give us something to consider? You know, it would. It would probably be a condensed version of what I went through a few minutes ago, because I know right now that a lot of people who are listening are hurting and some of them feel hopeless. And they think that they're struggling with something that they don't know that they can overcome. ⁓ But I want them to know that there is help, healing and hope for them. Help being There are positive steps that will tend to move you in the right direction. Not that it'll solve all your problems, but there are things that you can do to help. No matter what you're struggling with, rather than lean into the pain and make it worse, if you start taking positive steps, that will help. The second thing is there is healing for them. by that, mean encouragement. Whatever you're struggling with, there are people who have been right where you are. And many of them have gone on to very happy and satisfied lives, so it can work. But there's also hope. There's a realistic assurance of a positive future, meaning not only can you take steps in the right direction, and other people have done it, but there is a God who loves you and created you and who will be with you every step of the way. So whatever you're going through right now, hang in there. ⁓ Hang on to hope. understand that very often God does his most creative work in what seemed to be our toughest times and just take it a step at a time and trust God in the process. Amen. And can move on and get better. Absolutely. I'm so grateful that God put you on our path and us in yours. ⁓ This is a splendid ⁓ discussion. Actually, love to have you back to continue this discussion at another time. And you you know how to meet us where we need to be met. And that's a gift. Not everyone feels they're confident enough yet in their walk with God to transparently say the things openly where we can get them. And since you've been given the gift, I want to take advantage of it. Well, I enjoyed it. You have a wonderful ministry through your podcast and your heart and passion shows through. it was an honor to be here. Well, we are, we're going, I'm going to pray and then we're going to stop the podcast after a challenge and then. ⁓ Steve and I are going to hang on for a few minutes and chat afterward and just praise God for this opportunity. But let's pray. Heavenly Father, we're so grateful for the privilege we've had to share your good news with all our listeners and viewers. Lord, whether they're struggling or whether they're stuck or whether they're trying to move forward, but they could use the encouragement. Let something that's been said, something that's been experienced, be real to them. Let your love be real to them in ways that are tangible and peaceful and joyful. Lord, be real to them and help them to be all they can be for you. Lord, for those that are struggling with forgiveness and they don't know how to forgive. Lord help them to first receive forgiveness from you and in that process learn forgiveness that they might become set free from all the ugly and therefore they can live a joyful life. Bless each of those that are viewing and listening, meet them in their needs, encourage them and bring joy in their lives and help them to be all that you had planned for them to be regardless of how they started in Jesus' name. Amen. Now the challenge. is always a seek after God, he will be found. You want to know God better, meet Jesus. Jesus is, that he is the way to God, and that if you want to know God, you come through Jesus. And if you seek after God, Jesus is the way. So do that and let God move powerfully in your life. This has been the God Says Yes podcast with David Ebel. To connect with David, email him at godsaysyespodcast.gmail.com. You can get his latest book, When the Doctors Say No, God Says Yes, at Amazon.com.